Full Throttle: The Journeys of a Litigator and Race Car Driver

[00:00:06] John Reed: Speed. Control. Precision. Whether you're navigating a hairpin turn at 140 miles per hour or litigating a high-stakes complex lawsuit, it's not only your skill that makes you successful; it's your instinct, planning your strategy, reading your opponent, anticipating their next move, knowing exactly when to accelerate and when to break.

You have to innately understand that the difference between victory and defeat can be a fine and sometimes unpredictable line. This level of decision-making is unfamiliar to most of us. We experience the pressure, the excitement, the stress, and the adrenaline only occasionally. But what if you felt that rush every weekend?

Today's guest has spent decades mastering two entirely different forms of competition. On the track, he's gone wheel to wheel with some of the country's best amateur car drivers, pushing high-performance machines to their limits on legendary circuits like Virginia International Raceway and Daytona. In the courtroom, he's brought and defended everything from bet-the-company commercial disputes to catastrophic personal injury cases, realizing that sometimes the most important victories aren't measured in dollars or lap times, but in helping his client be heard.

Roman Lifson is a partner and litigator at Christian & Barton in Richmond, Virginia, where he has developed a niche focus on—you guessed it—motorsports law. He's also living proof that the most meaningful life and career aren't always the most linear, and sometimes the most significant work we do is on ourselves, learning to be authentic in our relationships, vulnerable, in our humanity, and present in every moment.

 Roman. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:55] Roman Lifson: Thank you. I really appreciate the invitation.

[00:01:58] John Reed: Let's start with this question. Which interest did you develop first? Law or racing?

[00:02:04] Roman Lifson: The racing/car hobby certainly came first, back from a very early age, when I spent my first 10 years growing up in Moscow and what was then the USSR, and was marveling at the few American cars that were parked near the one hotel where all the foreigners were allowed to stay.

So, on my way home from school every morning I would be taking a detour to be walking around. I remember there was an old Mercury Capri that I thought was just the greatest thing on earth. So yeah, the car hobby came very, very early.

[00:02:35] John Reed: Okay. So, you kind of threw me a curveball here. Let's go back and talk about the huge transition for you, the life transition from Moscow to the United States. Tell me about that.

[00:02:44] Roman Lifson: Yeah, it was quite the transition. It was an excellent transition. Yeah, I was born in Moscow, and when I was 10 years old, my parents picked up everything and left everything they knew for a better life. And they did it largely for me. We immigrated in 1977 and wound up settling in Minnesota. My father was a neurosurgeon, and there was a physician whom we met when that physician, Dr. Burton, visited my dad's hospital in Moscow. When we got out of Russia, they contacted the few westerners they'd met, and this doctor responded that he had a fellowship open. So that's how we wound up in Minnesota. People joke that it was because it was a similar climate, but that wasn't quite, that wasn't quite it.

[00:03:23] John Reed: How was exiting the country? Was it, "Grab your stuff, kids, we're leaving”? Or was it more planned?

[00:03:28] Roman Lifson: Yeah, well, it was planned. It was a very difficult process. It was at a time when the Soviets were letting some people out, but they also were refusing a lot of people. So, actually, my parents' best friends got stuck for an extra 15 years.

The Soviets were really good at bureaucracy, and they made this as difficult as they possibly could. So, I remember my parents had a stack of documents on their table that was probably like three feet high, everything that was compiled. And once you submit your application, everyone knows that you're trying to leave, so you’re really persona non grata. So, it's really burning the ships. And after waiting for about four months, we were granted permission to leave. And then we spent a week in Vienna, and then four months in Rome applying to get into the country. It was certainly an anxiety-producing process, especially for my parents, because like I said, they left everything they knew, didn't really know where they were going.

[00:04:18] John Reed: There are all sorts of horror stories with foreign medical professionals coming into the United States, and you hear that they're doing odd jobs while they try to get a certification, licensure, what have you. What was your father's path?

[00:04:31] Roman Lifson: In order to practice medicine in the US, he had to pass two really difficult recertification exams, to pass them in English. And my probably most vivid memory of our four months in Italy, on the outskirts of Rome, we had this kind of cold subterranean apartment. And he got hold of the medical textbooks that he had to read and relearn. And he sat in this dank, windowless, cold room with a really cold tile floor for probably 14-16 hours each day, studying those books. And it was so cold that he had to fold the blankets underneath the desk, so to put his feet on, on top of him. And he did that every day for four months straight. But as a result, he was the first physician ever to pass both those exams on the first try when we got here. And as a result, he was able to resume his medical career. So, I have a lot of admiration for his hard work in that respect.

[00:05:28] John Reed: Is there an American Dream, and did your parents and your family realize that dream?

[00:05:33] Roman Lifson: It definitely was, and we definitely did because of their hard work and dedication and willingness, all of our willingness to assimilate to the new country. Never had to take any public assistance or handouts, and really achieved everything, and even probably more than they ever hoped for. They got out of a totalitarian regime. They spared me from being conscripted into the Soviet army, which probably would've put me in Afghanistan if I were still there.

I'm very, very conscious of a lot of the imperfections and a lot of challenges that this country has, and certainly a lot of challenges that immigrants have. But I give all the credit in the world to both my parents for their hard work to really achieve what I think anyone would consider to be the personification of the American Dream.

[00:06:17] John Reed: We could do a whole episode on just this. But I'm going to go back to what we started with, and that is cars. Were you the kid that could readily name the brands and the model years and the specs and everything about the cars? Were you that guy?

[00:06:33] Roman Lifson: I could do that by seeing a portion of a taillight. Yes. The answer's definitely yes. I was, I was definitely that guy.

[00:06:45] John Reed: You get that magical thing called the driver's license. Where does it go from there to the track?

[00:06:51] Roman Lifson: I confess to having a few speeding tickets in my early teenager hood. 

[00:06:56] John Reed: Rites of passage, Roman, you know, badges of honor.

[00:06:58] Roman Lifson: That's right. And, in Minnesota, back then, the driver's license, when you got your license, you first got a piece of paper, and then after about six weeks, you got the embossed driver's license. So, my first speeding ticket, I got caught before I got my embossed card. And as the officer pulls me over and asks for my license, I start unraveling this crumpled-up piece of paper. And he said, "Oh, man, you haven't even gotten your card yet." I definitely loved driving, loved everything automotive, but didn't get into any serious trouble.

[00:07:27] John Reed: At what point in your life did you then go to the track? How did that start?

[00:07:33] Roman Lifson: So, in, I think it was 2006, I was invited to a track event at Virginia International Raceway, which has become my home track and a really valued great client about a little over two hours south of Richmond. And I went with what then was my family sedan, although it did have 500 horsepower. So, I had an absolute ball the entire day and got completely hooked. For the next about year, year and a half, I used that car for track events and was modifying it to make it handle even better.

I had an instructor at the time whom I got to know well, who, after a while, said, "You know what? You're doing this often enough, and you're going fast enough that it's not really a question of if you're going to hit something, but when." VIR has a very long back straight, and I was, every lap, hitting about a little over 160 miles an hour. And I realized, you know what? Doing that lap after lap, event after event, with nothing but a three-point seatbelt in the helmet is probably not the best idea. Not the most responsible idea.

So, I had a very close friend who's along the same path, and he and I decided we needed to get some dedicated track cars. A car that you could put all the safety gear in. You couldn't drive it on the streets, and then we had to get trailers, and then that begat tow vehicles. And you can see how the rabbit hole opens up pretty quickly.

[00:08:59] John Reed: What you're doing at that time, is this true competition? Is it time trials? I'm just curious how it started. 

[00:09:05] Roman Lifson: Yeah. So, the very first kind of stage, what they call HPD, which is high-performance driver education events, which is really, it's not competition, it's not officially timed, although, you know, everyone's running stopwatches. But the idea is to really learn how to handle the car near its limits and, you know, slowly improve. And then from that, I graduated from having an instructor to being able to drive solo, to then becoming an instructor myself, and then moving into time trials, where you're basically on track more or less by yourself, and really just competing for lap times.

And then eventually, my friend asked me to go to race school with him, and I said, "Man, you know, I'm doing this as a stress relief. I don't need to add stress to my life. I have no intention of racing. I'll go to race school with you. That sounds fun, but I'm not going to be racing." And then we go to race school, and on the second day, I realize, oh yeah, I'm totally doing this. So, then it was full-on full competition, wheel racing, and that was truly captivating.

[00:10:11] John Reed: What was the hook that second day, or by that second day?

[00:10:13] Roman Lifson: Um, the hook was just the challenge of improving and really being able to handle the car at its limits. Being able to handle the car with other cars in close proximity, lowering the lap times.

Because the first one you do it, you're talking about, Oh, you know, how do I cut off three seconds off my lap? And then one second? And eventually it's like, where can I find a 10th? Or where can I find a few hundredths of a second? So, using data and video. The whole process to me was challenging. It was interesting. It was exhilarating. Got to make some really good, good friends with the other people that were on track with me.

[00:10:48] John Reed: How does the formality change? You were going to VIR on weekends. Now you're competing. Is there a circuit? How does that happen?

[00:11:00] Roman Lifson: Yeah, there's several different clubs around the country that host competition events and I ran with two of them, mainly with the BMW Car Club of America, that host racing events all across the US and Canada. It really depends how many you can get to based on your schedule and budget.

So, I would plot out my schedule for the year and see how many I can hit, where I can go, because some of it requires towing long distances. And then there's a lot of preparation that goes in to get your car ready for each event. They're pretty highly stressed. Things break all the time. Then it's generally kind of a long weekend. You tow out there, and then you have some practice sessions, you have qualifying sessions, and you have usually three races per weekend.

[00:11:44] John Reed: Are you a gearhead? So, you're home after work, and you're in the garage working on your car?

[00:11:48] Roman Lifson: I will tell you that, unlike the vast majority of my competitors, who are not only excellent drivers but also avid and excellent mechanics, I am not an excellent mechanic. I do not enjoy it. I don't enjoy wrenching, I'm not good at it. Frankly, I don't want to drive fast something that I've worked on extensively.

I did have a couple friends in town who really liked working on cars, so I used them. And then at the track events, I really relied on the kindness of, well, I would say strangers, but they weren't strangers. They were friends. And that was one of the many nice things about the whole environment that, yes, we're competing with each other, but we're always helping each other, whatever we can do. So, a lot of times, when something would be wrong with my car. People would hear about it, and I'd be standing back, and I'd have six guys I'm going to be competing with, and women who are wrenching on my car and trying to get me back on track.

[00:12:41] John Reed: And they loved every minute of it. 

[00:12:43] Roman Lifson: They loved every minute of it. They certainly made me understand that they were doing me a big favor, and I was very appreciative.

[00:12:49] John Reed: So, I have, uh, been to the Indianapolis 500 time trials. I am a Netflix Drive to Survive fan. What is the kind of class or racing compared to those? And I realize we're talking about much different things but put it in perspective for us. 

[00:13:03] Roman Lifson: Yeah. We race on what are called road courses, which are tracks all around the country that have elevation changes. They have both turns to the left and to the right. For example, VIR’s main configuration is about 3.27 miles, 17 turns, lots of elevation changes, and every track is different. So, you really have to learn each track, and different cars handle differently. There are different setups. There was Daytona and Watkins Glen and Road Atlanta and Sebring and Mid-Ohio—those kind of places.

[00:13:36] John Reed: Your goal is to improve, and you talked about speed, right? It's seconds at the beginning and then it's tenths of seconds later. Is that the only thing one does or you do to improve? Is it all speed only?

[00:13:50] Roman Lifson: It's really handling the car, especially in the turns, I mean, on the straights, yeah, anyone can just mash the gas pedal, hold the steering wheel straight. But it really is, navigating the turns in the most efficient way, and also handling traffic.

Because when we're on track, there are usually many different classes. So, the speed differentials can be very significant. So, you're not only trying to pass people in your class, but you're also navigating slower traffic. A lot of times, you have to watch out for faster traffic. Managing the other cars around you is a huge part of the learning process and getting confident in your ability to do that.

[00:14:26] John Reed: Where do you feel safer, the highway or the speedway?

[00:14:30] Roman Lifson: Oh, I've talked about this with a lot of people. I've always felt safer on the track for a couple of reasons. One is, yes, we're going really fast and we're at the, oftentimes at the limits of the cars. But everyone on the track with us is skilled, is very attentive. They understand the risks and the consequences. And we also have all the safety gear. I mean, there's a full cage, there's fire suppression. We're wearing full race suits, helmets. So, I felt safer going well over 140 miles an hour around turns on track, inches away from other cars, than driving up and down Interstate 95 here.

[00:15:07] John Reed: The instructor who told you, it's not an if, but a when, when it comes to hitting something. I have to ask. Any incidents? 

[00:15:14] Roman Lifson: Fortunately, I've never sustained an injury. I did have a brake failure going into turn one at VIR, which is about 135-140 miles an hour. So, went straight off. Luckily there's a lot of runoff room but did hit the tire wall at the limits. And the car went so far deep into the tire wall that it, the tire wall, knocked off my outside mirrors on the doors. But I didn't have a scratch. I wasn't even sore. The car was in decent shape. It's more of that rather than, you know, car-to-car contact, although that happens also.

[00:15:45] John Reed: Do you have a rival? Is there a Jean Gerard to your Ricky Bobby, a Ford to your Ferrari?

[00:15:50] Roman Lifson: Lots of rivals. In my class, there were several people that were more experienced than I, were really fantastic drivers. There were others that are coming up around the same time, and there are others entering after I did. And we were all working on our stuff, working on our craft. Because the way the classes are defined, the cars have to be pretty close. So, it really does come down to mostly driver skill, which makes it that much more fun. But yeah, there's some definite rivalries, but all very good-natured. 

[00:16:21] John Reed: Do drivers that you know and compete with, do they have a signature style or move? Do you know what they're going to do?

[00:16:31] Roman Lifson: Yeah, the familiarity definitely grows. You can predict fairly accurately how aggressive somebody's going to be, how somebody's going to defend against you if you're trying to pass, how they're going to try to pass you if you're ahead. We learn whom to trust more, whom to trust less, who to expect to, dive on you in the turn. And that's also part of the fun because we all have our own little tells and little characteristics. 

[00:16:58] John Reed: I ask this question normally in a legal sense, but what are your greatest hits in racing? And it doesn't have to be just wins, but things you're most proud of.

[00:17:07] Roman Lifson: You know, certainly winning races is fun. You know, I did have several really fun, fun battles. One of my friends and competitors in my class, I remember we had one qualifying session, and the qualifying session determines the starting order. It's the same thing in Formula One. Whoever has the best lap time in qualifying gets to start first.

She and I were swapping, qualifying positions within, you know, hundredths of seconds of each other for the entire qualifying session. And then I think she wound up being just ahead of me, and then I spent most of the race trying to get ahead of her. And using some traffic, I was able to get ahead. That was very rewarding, very fun.

But also just, you know, learning new tracks and getting up that learning curve at a new place and dialing in the car and dealing with adverse weather conditions. There were times when we had pouring down rain, and obviously the tires are different. The car setup is totally different, and sometimes the conditions change during the race. Be sunny and dry, and then halfway through the race, the skies open up, and all of a sudden, you feel like you're Bambi on ice. 

[00:18:12] John Reed: And you don't have a pit crew that's ready to change your tires.

[00:18:15] Roman Lifson: No, I mean, sometimes though people will help, but yeah, we're basically on our own. Some events are what they call enduros, which require a five-minute pit stop and allow you to change drivers. So, it was really fun sharing a car with a good friend and when we win that it's a, , team victory as well. 

[00:18:35] John Reed: So, a mini Le Mans?

[00:18:37] Roman Lifson: That's right. Exactly.

[00:18:38] John Reed: So, let's switch gears. Sorry. Pun. When did the idea of a law career enter your mind?

[00:18:45] Roman Lifson: Really towards the very end of high school and early college. Academically, I was more pulled towards the political science, the philosophy, the constitutional law. Law school became a fairly natural progression.

[00:18:58] John Reed: Amherst undergrad, UVA law, and into litigation. What you described was the philosophical academic. Litigation is something completely different. When did that attraction to litigation happen?

[00:19:11] Roman Lifson: I think that also happened during my summer associate programs and I got a taste of litigation. I really enjoyed the mystery and the puzzle aspect of it, and having every case be different. Learning about new businesses, new products, and the challenge of being able to convey, to tell the story on behalf of the client. That really appealed to me.

Very early on, I think as a first-year associate, I had a transactional project that I won't bore you with, but the bottom line is that coming out of that project, it confirmed that I'm really glad that I have colleagues and friends and partners who want to do that work, so I don't have to.

[00:19:54] John Reed: Talk about the trajectory. Started off in a big law firm. Now you're practicing in Richmond. So geographically, where are your moves, but also how has your litigation practice changed over that time?

[00:20:06] Roman Lifson: Yeah, I did start in San Diego with a large national firm. I was there for three or four years. And I had a terrific experience. I was fortunate to have mentors who let me do a lot, gave me a lot of responsibility. I was not one of those big firm refugees who ran screaming into the night.

I had a really good experience. Yes, it was really hard work. The demands were high. The only reason I left is for family reasons. And then moved to Minnesota, and I'm fairly sure I'm probably the only person to ever move from San Diego to Minnesota. I was fortunate to latch on with a mid-size, very litigation-heavy firm that took a lot of cases to trial.

 Back in San Diego, I did a lot of commercial litigation and environmental litigation. In Minnesota, I did a lot of catastrophic personal injury, wrongful death work, and also a lot of product liability defense work, and got to try a lot of cases and really confirmed that that's what I really enjoyed, what I really wanted to do.

So, by the time I moved to Richmond, which now has been 27 years, I had a very specific understanding that I wanted to go to a firm that had an act of trial practice, not just the litigation practice. That's what I've been able to enjoy here with a wide variety of cases.

[00:21:23] John Reed: At the law firm where you started, a big law firm, there are big cases. A firm like that is not handling necessarily too big to fail cases or bet the farm, but it could be. Coming down market, and I say that with respect, what did you have to unlearn and relearn? Did you have to shift your litigation skills to accommodate that broader spectrum?

[00:21:44] Roman Lifson: The skills really did transfer because even back when I started, because I had really solid trial lawyer mentors, I understood from day one that even though the chances are a case is not going to go to trial, the vast majority of cases resolve, especially like the bet-the-company, enormous, really expensive cases. But we approached everyone with the expectation that would go to trial, because that's the way to be prepared if it does go to trial, but also to put ourselves in the client in the best position for a favorable resolution.

Because if you sense that your opposition is scared of trial or is not prepared, that puts you in a much more favorable negotiating position. From the skills perspective, it was definitely consistent. Certainly, working with smaller clients and right now we have really a range everything from individuals to large multinational corporations, but all of them would like for you to be efficient. So, I think being efficient, really distilling the cases to what really matters, to have the confidence to let go of claims and defenses that don't serve, have been potent lessons.

[00:22:56] John Reed: You've had experience handling both plaintiff and defense cases, sometimes involving personal injury. I worked for an insurance defense firm where no way, no how were we going to take on any personal injury cases? We did not want to send that message to the clients. Not that there were going to be conflicts, we just didn't want to have that appearance.

Do you encounter that? One. And two, do you have a different perspective, an expanded perspective by handling both types of cases on both sides of the aisle?

[00:23:26] Roman Lifson: Yeah, I'll answer your second question first because it feeds in into the first. Yes, I think there's a tremendous advantage, and I'm convinced that I'm better at both because I do both. When I'm defending a client, say, in a product liability case, because I've represented plaintiffs in product liability cases, I'm more able to predict and understand what pressure points there are, where they're trying to go.

Similarly, because I've done a lot of defense work, I know how defendants work, I know how insurance companies work. I know about the interplay between the adjusters and the lawyers and in-house counsel. So, yeah, it makes me better at both.

And then getting back to your first question, it is unusual to have a foot in both those camps. And from time to time, I can't say I've gotten any real flak from any clients. I have gotten some questions, and I explained to them, "So look, I am better, and I'll be able to represent you better because I've also done, and I continue to do work on the other side.

The sophisticated clients understand that the world is not black and white. Not all plaintiffs are frauds and not all plaintiff's lawyers are liars, and not all corporations are just money-grubbing entities that don't care about people's safety. The world is much grayer. And I think when we recognize that grayness, those ambiguities, we're better able to advise our clients and represent them.

[00:24:53] John Reed: So, what you've described in your litigation practice, nowhere did the word motorsports ever come up. How did your two worlds come together? How did you develop that motor sports practice?

[00:25:05] Roman Lifson: Yeah, because I started visiting VIR a lot and got to know the wonderful people that run it, I was asked to meet with the owners and talk about what I could offer. And it's become a wonderful relationship now going on a couple decades. And, it certainly has included litigation work. It's included some disputes that really were in the category of bet-the-company litigation. It also has included a lot of counseling. So, for example, one of the things I do is liability audit and training about how to respond to critical incidents. Because anybody that's done any kind of premises liability or product liability work, anything that crashes, explodes, catches on fire, falls down, the events immediately in the 24, 48 hours after the incident are really key. And what happens a lot, from both sides, is people inevitably make statements from not an understanding of what actually happened, but from a lot of assumptions. And we spend a disproportionate amount of time in each case dealing with those erroneous reports.

 And then also a lot of help in contract negotiation from track rentals to sponsorship agreements. I've also done work for some professional race car drivers, so yeah, there's definitely a lot that falls into the transactional arena. 

[00:26:28] John Reed: How did that happen, Roman? I just heard you express your love of transactional work, and now all of a sudden, here you are in it.

[00:26:36] Roman Lifson: Yeah, well, my main value add on the contract side falls in the liability area, dealing with proper indemnification and insurance requirements and venue and forum selection clauses and negotiating those. It definitely dovetails with my understanding of what happens when, you know, something bad happens, and somebody sues. But it's my ability, my experience in actually being in the trenches, of being to numerous track events, knowing how they're run, knowing what a tech inspection is, knowing what goes into somebody coming to a track event, knowing how various safety features in cars are often dealt with, or even disabled by drivers. That really gives me an inside perspective so I can really help the clients both on the litigation front and on the contract negotiation front.

[00:27:29] John Reed: Fair to say for VIR in particular, you are their outside general counsel.

[00:27:33] Roman Lifson: Yes.

[00:27:34] John Reed: What did you have to learn about their business to be a better general counsel? What didn't you know before that you learned when you took on that role?

[00:27:43] Roman Lifson: It's a great question. VIR is such a fantastic facility. It's one of the world's foremost racing circuits, but it also has a lot of other facilities there. There's lodging. There's hospitality. There's a go-kart track. They also host some events for the three-letter agencies who come there to do sniper training and house clearing. So, there's a lot going on there.

So definitely understanding the various parts of their business and how they relate to each other was definitely important. Also, the different events they host on the track are different. Some are open, you know, come drive or come watch. Some of them are professional commercial racing events where they sell tickets, but some are automotive manufacturers who rent the track, and they don't want anyone there because they are testing a new model that hasn't been announced. So, we deal with making sure that nobody else is on site, and that if anyone else is on site that there's proper protection for their intellectual property and all that. So, yeah. So, understanding the business and the multifaceted business is certainly important. And because I've been fortunate for them to really rely on me and my colleagues for everything, we've been able to learn that.

And also, you know, being in a firm where I do have partners who are excellent real estate lawyers, for example. So, VIR they had originally when they reopened the track, it was on a 99-year lease owned by a local family. And of over a period of years, were able to help VIR to actually purchase the land. So now they can really fully invest in all the infrastructure without having the land pulled out from under them.

[00:29:25] John Reed: How do you balance, and how does the firm help you balance, the racing with the practice?

[00:29:30] Roman Lifson: Yeah. You know, I'm really fortunate to be in a firm that is fully on board with people pursuing their interests—and developing business in new areas. Before I came, this firm certainly had not done any motorsports-related work, but I had full support from the firm and my partners to pursue it because A, they knew that was something I was interested in. And B, it was a new area that's potentially lucrative for the firm. So, to expand the work that I can do and also work that I can carve off to my partners and colleagues who practice in other areas. So, in that sense, I've been very fortunate, and I've got nothing but extraordinary support.

[00:30:09] John Reed: What would you say are your greatest hits in the practice? Things of which you're most proud.

[00:30:14] Roman Lifson: You know, certainly, we've had a lot of trials, as anyone who's tried any number of cases, we've lost cases we should have won, and we've won cases we should have lost. And we eventually understand to not rise too high with the high, so we don't drop too low with the lows. One of my most impactful cases was on behalf of a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, who was sexually abused by a teacher at a religious school when he was in seventh grade, and he didn't disclose it to anyone for 30-plus years. And finally, the dam broke, and he was the really textbook case of survivor, that kind of abuse. He internalized it. He turned to alcohol to alcohol abuse to numb the pain. He blamed himself. His career trajectory was downward, and when he came to me, he was in really, really rough shape. Actively suicidal.

The case, because of when the abuse occurred, there were obvious statute of limitations issues. And as Virginia, as many other states, has expanded the statute of limitations specifically for sexual abuse. The way the Virginia statute worked, there was a panoply of pleadings in which the school tried to get the case dismissed. It became really what would've been a sadistic law school exam question. And eventually, actually, the judge agreed with the school and dismissed the case.

And I was convinced that the judge had it wrong, filed a motion for reconsideration. And in my 33 years of practice, this was the only time that a motion for reconsideration succeeded either for me or against me. We were able to resurrect the case.

And throughout, because my client was so fragile, one of my challenges was to balance my obligation to keep him informed versus my fear that the next piece of bad news could really cause him to harm himself and potentially die. I really, frankly, felt not qualified to make those judgments, so I worked with his psychiatrist to determine how best to titrate that information, and eventually were able to resolve the case on really favorable terms.

For him, the most cathartic part of it was he, for the first time in three-plus decades, somebody told him that what happened to him should not have happened to him. And that was just a huge, huge shift. But that's the case that kept me up at night for two, three years, and I was very gratified in the trust and also to be able to resolve it.

[00:32:51] John Reed: Well, first of all, let me say, um, that's powerful. I have worked with firms that are in this space and so that idea of being heard is oftentimes far more important than any sort of monetary compensation. So, I get that. And kudos to you for getting that for him.

In the motor sports law area, anything that you've done there that you want to call out for people?

[00:33:16] Roman Lifson: Yeah. So, VIR had a very contentious case against a company that had resurfaced the track and had really botched it. And the asphalt was coming up to the point where they really couldn't run events. It just wasn't safe, and the professional racing bodies said, "You know, we can't run our event here." Repaving a four-mile-long track is expensive. So that was a very challenging case that also we're able to get resolved shortly before trial very favorably and really set the facility on a really good path moving forward.

And then I had a, um, this falls into the category of truth being stranger than fiction. I had a case for one of the major circle tracks here, where a person who'd been parked in the handicap parking lot, when he was exiting the track after a major NASCAR race, it was wall-to-wall traffic, and he was inching forward, and all of a sudden, he slammed an accelerator and ran over about three dozen people. Miraculously, no one was killed. One person was injured very seriously, and there were three different firms that represented those three-dozen people. And two of the firms sued only the driver. One of the firms sued the driver and also the track.

As we found out the reason that the person was in the handicapped parking lot is because he had a prosthetic leg. And the reason he ran over people is because his prosthetic leg got caught between the brake and the accelerator. So, you, you know, you just can't make it up.

 You know, getting back to where I was before, what really attracts me to the work is the variety of every case being different, whether it's a product, whether it's a situation. And learning about every new situation to me is really interesting. So, I've always valued the variety in my practice and have not wanted to be a hyper specialist, which a lot of lawyers really like, and they excel at, they know, all the cases, all the issues, all the experts, and they're really good at it. But I think I'm best when I have a variety.

[00:35:21] John Reed: Going back to the VIR case for just a minute, I have to imagine your driving skills, your racing skills, that knowledge not only gave you such an appreciation for the safety risk, but also made you better counsel for the client in that dispute. Is that fair? 

[00:35:40] Roman Lifson: Absolutely, because I knew there were some real problem areas on the track, and I knew exactly where they were because I stopped counting at 3000 laps there, so I know that track probably better than the back of my hand. So I could definitely understand why a piece of asphalt coming up in a particular turn, what problems that creates, why it's dangerous, and it definitely, it definitely, uh, was a, uh, was a huge benefit in understanding the importance of the particular areas of the track and also the quality of the, pavement because I know what good asphalt feels like with bad asphalt feels like. I know the difference between asphalt and concrete and how that impacts the car dynamics.

[00:36:20] John Reed: You strike me as a very introspective, Zen kind of guy. Not a stereotypical litigator, or, frankly, a stereotypical competitor. Where does this even-keeled tone and perspective come from?

[00:36:35] Roman Lifson: You know, it's been a journey, and for the majority of my life, I lived what I kind of call a very linear life. You know, raised by Eastern European parents. They're very pragmatic. You kind of establish a goal early on, and you go towards that goal. And what I found myself doing is that, yeah, I establish a goal of a law career and assume that I would practice for however many decades and then retire, and that's it.

And as a result, what I realized later is that I was so devoted to that and focused on that original goal that I was not paying attention to everything else in the periphery. It was almost like going through life with blinders on. And over the last however many years, I give my wife a ton of credit; she's a yogi and an incredibly innovative, introspective person who is very spiritual. We really dove into exploring the spirituality aspect of life. And that's been probably the biggest cathartic experience I've had because it's really opened my eyes to what else is out there. We've really devoted a lot of time to programs that really help us understand ourselves, to enhance our relationship. We've really channeled that into that form of life. 

My wife, Hallie, is an occupational therapist by training. She's been running women's groups for many, many years and been taking women on really wonderful pilgrimages. And that really morphed also into working with men and working with couples. And travel has always been a tremendous interest and passion for us. So, we also, a few times a year, we take people to miraculous places around the world and layer some real work on top of that, from some tantric perspectives, from this kind of really introspective work that has opened up people's eyes to the type of relating that they before did not really appreciate and really dive into the authenticity.

And that's really what I've been pursuing in my relationships with friends. Because there are certain blocks that we have. You know, it's easy for us to talk with people about our successes, our wins, how wonderful we are, how talented our children are, how beautiful our dog is, how well decorated our house is. It's much more difficult to talk about what are failures, what are fears.

I mean, especially for men. I mean, as men, we're not supposed to be afraid of anything. But guess what? We're all afraid of things. Of shame. Those are the things that are difficult to talk about because we fear what we get back in response. And what we get back in response a lot of times is judgment.

So, we've really been practicing discernment about where are the relationships where we can really be fully authentic and rely on and understand that our friends are there for our benefit, for our support instead of to compete with us. And that's been a major shift in our lives and really prioritizing spending time and devoting time to people who really are there for our best benefit and who don't see something that may have negatively impacted us as a notch in their belt because somehow they've got to step up on us.

 I really want to share with everybody how impactful that has been in my life, in my marriage, in my relationship with my children, my relationship with my friends. And there are so many opportunities for retreats and experiences, that I know I never came across that. I share that, especially with the younger people, with my children, because I wish when I was in my twenties that somebody would've told me about these opportunities.

So, I just encourage everyone to look into that and to explore the benefits, not to just their careers, but to their lives that those personal development opportunities can offer.

I'll tell you one of the most impactful things I've done over the last two years. I've been involved with a small men's group where we get together at retreats and, just the difference between being with a group of men who you know are there unquestionably to support you and to help you. It's really been a wonderful process. That's been a really fulfilling part of the journey.

[00:41:02] John Reed: You made a really important point about men. We are discovering so much more about men and their relationships, men and their inability to have friendships later in life, and the detriment that that causes, so credit to you for wanting to fight that fight and bring that awareness.

[00:41:17] Roman Lifson: And it's also, I'm continuously working on translating it to the law practice.

[00:41:24] John Reed: Well, let's talk about that because, you know, um, when we graduate from law school, and we pass the bar, we're lawyers. Congratulations. You're a lawyer. Right? And even though we're not formally taught those skills in law school, we’re also counselors. Maybe not in the clinical sense, but we’re counselors, nonetheless. You're taking that to a different level. And so, talk about how you are not only embracing this role as counselor, but enhancing that, changing it, morphing it into something more powerful.

[00:41:59] Roman Lifson: Yeah, John, you really hit on it. You know, law, and especially litigation, is by definition an adversarial process. There's no way around it.

But what I've found is that many times lawyers make it more adversarial than it needs to be, and lawyers get too caught up in fighting without reflecting on how can we really serve the counselor role as opposed to warrior role.

What I've found, and what's been challenging for me, and as I go along my legal career is that I feel like we spend more, a disproportionate amount of our time destroying rather than creating. And the creating part to me is much more fulfilling. And it also serves our clients' interests better because, I'm sure everyone has seen lawyers kind of pick up the baton from the client and escalate the battle instead of diffuse the battle, which virtually every time does not serve the client's interest because all it does is make it even more expensive and drives the parties further apart instead of trying to find where is the solution that helps both sides move on.

All of us have been in very hard-fought cases where the clients have been very angry with the opposition, and they want to fight it to the death, and then we'll resolve the case, and the very next morning, I'll get a call and say, you know what? I just woke up with a sense of lightness and freedom that I haven't had since this case started. So, it's conveying the benefit of a win-win or a partial win. And then of course also if we take the case to trial and whether we win or lose, there's an outcome, and there's a process after that.

And I really wish and hope that we as lawyers focus more than we normally do on our roles as counselors than just fighting for the sake of fighting.

[00:43:57] John Reed: You've mentioned a few times in our conversation today: relationships. Relationships you have on the track. Off the track. Relationships you have in your personal life, in your professional legal life. One of the things that, a lot of people, the lay public doesn't understand is, there's this assumption that if there's a dispute, if there's a lawsuit, that it's going to get resolved and never the parties shall meet again. When in fact, in the commercial space, you know, VIR might have a dispute with another company, but they still have to work together. Yeah, you can get a result, but that's not necessarily the solution. You seem to have your eyes on that for the client sometimes when they don't.

[00:44:39] Roman Lifson: Yeah, I think that's part of our role is, being significantly detached that we can see the bigger picture and help the client see the bigger picture. Now, mind you, nothing I'm saying suggests that we pull any punches or that we advocate for our clients any less zealously. But there's too much of fighting for the sake of fighting. There's too much of writing nasty letters.

You know, one of my, I had two wonderful mentors when I worked in Minnesota. You had some difficult cases, different opposing counsel, and my inclination was to respond to a nasty two-page letter with a nasty four-page letter. And then, my younger colleagues and I decided, you know what? I think we need to really reframe this and ask ourselves each time that happens not what would we do, but what would Ty do, , our mentor? And virtually every single time, the answer was very different. And virtually every single time, the outcome of what would Ty do was much more productive to the client, to our relationship, to the case, than just escalating a spitting war.

[00:45:45] John Reed: Roman, I have really enjoyed this conversation, not only learning about your racing and your practice, but also certainly about your history and your outlook. So, I just want to thank you for spending the time and sharing it with me. 

[00:45:58] Roman Lifson: Well, John, again, thank you for the invitation. I enjoyed talking with you. I commend you on creating this forum for lawyers of different walks of life to share their experiences because I think we're all better off when we find out those things.

[00:46:11] John Reed: Oh, you're very kind. Thank you.

 If you want to learn more about Roman's work and accomplishments, look for links in this episode's show notes on stickylawyers.com. 

 Hey, before you go, whether you're a first-time visitor or a devoted Stickler, thank you for your curiosity and for tuning in. If you found value in today's conversation, would you do us a favor? Share this episode with a colleague who might benefit from hearing about Roman's career path or with a friend who could learn from his personal journey.

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Until next time, I'm John Reed, and you've been listening to Sticky Lawyers.