Mic Swap: Sticky Lawyer Stories With John Reed and Laura Khalil

John Reed: [00:00:08] Hey, listeners, as you know, in every episode, guests tell me their stories, what makes them remarkable, and what makes them sticky. Today we're gonna take a slightly different tack. Rather than interview someone else, yours truly is going to sit in the guest chair. Sitting in for me is Laura Khalil, a close friend, an established podcaster, and a trusted advisor, and she'll be asking me about how the podcast started, where the name came from, how I find guests, and lots of other questions that perhaps you've had on your mind, too.

I hope you'll enjoy this bonus behind-the-curtain episode.

Laura Khalil: [00:00:46] John, we are going to be turning the tables on you because I think that our audience actually wants to hear from the man behind the microphone.

John Reed: [00:00:56] Well, you know what? I've checked with both of our listeners, and they say they're interested in it.

Laura Khalil: [00:01:01] Okay, excellent. John, you and I actually sat together. I mean, that was what, about five years ago?

John Reed: [00:01:08] We were an aimless podcast idea until I listened to you as part of a conference through WDET. That's local public radio. Then we got in touch, and we clicked. And the rest is history. Here we are.

Laura Khalil: [00:01:25] Five years later. So, what was the spark for Sticky Lawyers? What for you was the spark for creating this podcast?

John Reed: [00:01:34] The impetus for creating the podcast was I wanted to learn how to do it. I wanted to learn how to do it for our clients. I wanted to learn how to do it well. There are all sorts of legit, valuable services out there for people to record and edit, and produce your podcast for you. But we wanted to learn to do it in-house.

Laura Khalil: [00:01:55] And how did you come up with the name Sticky Lawyers? Where did that come from?

John Reed: [00:02:00] So, back in a former career, we wanted to be so embedded with our clients that they couldn't leave, that the thought of leaving us would be so abhorrent to them, and so the idea of being sticky and memorable. I brought that over to this idea of being a sticky lawyer. How are you and your brand so memorable that you rise to the hallowed level of becoming a sticky lawyer?

Laura Khalil: [00:02:24] Okay. So, you decided to DIY your podcast. And what was the process of getting your sea legs?

John Reed: [00:02:31] First off, we started recording at a studio because I was absolutely certain I would not get good sound quality unless I was in a professional studio. And we did that, and that studio is great—Startup Nation. Shout out.

The first iteration was me talking to in-house legal marketers and other legal marketing experts about all things legal marketing. And we had some really wonderful guest participant beta testers, but it just really wasn't resonating. And then we said, okay, well, what if I just pontificate? Which was a horrible idea. It was just me talking, and that wasn't working either. And kind of à propos of a lot of our then future sticky lawyer guests, we just pivoted.

We're like, why are we working so hard at this? Rather than trying to promote our expertise, why don't we just go to interesting lawyers doing interesting things, remarkable lawyers doing remarkable things, and have them tell their story? And it just felt so right at that point.

Laura Khalil: [00:03:33] Tell us about some of the different types of law that you have had the opportunity to highlight on the show.

John Reed: [00:03:41] Well, that's the great thing because I have the attention span of a 6-year-old. I get to practice law through all my guests, just enough to learn it and then not have to buy malpractice insurance. So, it's a great gig for me.

I've learned about fashion law. I've learned about exploration law. I've learned about immigration, both business and individual asylum seekers. Genetics law. I mean, it's really fascinating. There's only really kind of like five or six building blocks of law, but then they go in all these directions. So, sports law is a combination of contracts, and trademarks, and property, and things like that. Same thing for fashion law. It's about branding and whatever. Music law is about copyrights. So, you get a lot of variations on building block themes, but still, they're niches, and people have found their way to doing something that they love. Many are passionate, and that passion, I think, comes through in the conversations.

Laura Khalil: [00:04:41] Now I'm not an attorney. I do, however, have a dream of appearing on Judge Judy, so maybe you and I could both go on, John, actually. Could we find something to sue each other over?

John Reed: [00:04:51] Yes, I didn't have you sign anything to be on this podcast, so you can go to Judge Judy and dispute ownership rights to this episode. 

Laura Khalil: [00:04:57] I love it. Okay, great. So, now that we've got that squared away, I would imagine that there's a lot of attorneys, or especially people in school, who are thinking about what are the routes that I can take as an attorney. You've really shown that in almost any area, you can find success. And I think that's actually quite inspiring for any listeners to the show to know that you don't have to follow a traditional route. I'm curious, what was your route into becoming an attorney? Was it the traditional way? Did you have dreams of doing something different with your own degree?

John Reed: [00:05:35] Like so many things in my life, it was purely accidental. I was working in an ad agency, which I thought was going to be my trajectory for my entire career. I had a marketing undergraduate degree and was looking to do something different. My undergraduate degree was technically a business degree, so getting an MBA didn't seem like a great idea, and I thought, let's make this change. Do it now while I'm young at that time.

And I had no designs on what I would be as an attorney. And actually, I think that's okay. It's kinda like, we're fine when kids go to college and declare that they're undecided because that's a learning experience. And I think I used the law or law school to have that. I certainly thought I would be in litigation, and I did that, and then I found out I was conflict-averse, which is not good. Then I think I took stock and said, “Okay, what can I do that combines the law degree that I spent so much time and money acquiring, as well as my love of marketing and business, and what have you?” And it set me down this path, and where I eventually, I got here.

Laura Khalil: [00:06:39] What is something that you wish people knew about attorneys?

John Reed: [00:06:44] I think people need to understand that attorneys are very, very aware of the public perception. Lawyer jokes are rampant, sometimes deserved. Most every attorney understands that they are operating under a stigma. I don't think it's paralyzing to attorneys, but it's certainly something we are all aware of.

Laura Khalil: [00:07:04] So you have interviewed John, how many, 50 different people?

John Reed: [00:07:09] Yes, we are at the 50 mark. I think we're over 50, but yes.

Laura Khalil: [00:07:13] What is a guest you would love to bring on the show? What is your dream of, oh gosh. If I could get this type of person or this exact person, that would really make my day

John Reed: [00:07:24] I've got no response from a couple people, so I'm hoping maybe this will get to them. I've sent an invitation out to the general counsel of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I would love to interview her. I won't name the particular zoo, but I've reached out to the general counsel of a very famous U.S. zoo to talk about all that goes into that.

Everybody, lawyer or not, has their own story. And my job is to get that story out or those stories out. I've had people at the end of an interview who I think feel better about themselves. They have a stronger sense of pride because I've taken the time to really ask about those things that are under the surface about their practice or their personal life, a lot of times. And that's a very privileged position for me to be in. I take that very seriously. I do have some of those goals in terms of super guests, but I've been so blessed with the people I've talked to already, and more to come.

Laura Khalil: [00:08:23] Without picking any favorites, what is a podcast episode that has really stuck with you or that you found most surprising or perhaps was just particularly touching to you?

John Reed: [00:08:37] You're right. I can't pick my favorite child. But I was probably most impacted by David Concannon, the explorer lawyer, who has dived on the Titanic multiple times as an attorney.

Laura Khalil: [00:08:51] Wait, what was he doing? 

John Reed: [00:08:52] He was representing filmmakers, and he was there to advise them of the international laws surrounding the Titanic, what they could and could not do. I remember not being able to breathe, I think for the first 5, 6, 7 minutes of that episode, because he was describing the descent. Just riveting. And then it just blossomed from there to all the other wonderful things that he has done. He has a professional story, which is great, but then he's got a personal story of how he discovered his love of the outdoors and adventure. And then how that transcended into something else.

And I think that's the other thing that pops up. There always seems to be a pivot. Somebody was doing something, and then something happened, and they pivoted. Whether in a personal life or a professional life, or what have you. Somebody got a phone call from somebody who needed representation in an area that they'd never handled before, and boom, they took off. I love kind of pulling that out of people.

Probably most touching, I had a wonderful conversation with Dr. John, orthopedic surgeon turned lawyer. We talked a lot about his doctor career and what that meant to him, and then his pivot into the law, and keeping some standards, like he will never sue another doctor because he wants to respect his other profession. So there, there's always something breathtaking and always something touching about every episode, I think.

Laura Khalil: [00:10:22] I'm thinking about your career. Obviously, you've made your own pivots from the ad agency to becoming an attorney, to actually now creating Rain BDM business development and marketing. We've been talking a lot about the interesting niches of these attorneys that you have found, but the niche alone, I think you would agree, doesn't just make someone sticky. There's something about them, about how they do business, how they conduct themselves. Tell us a little bit about that, because I think for our listeners who want to become stickier attorneys, what can they take away from that?

John Reed: [00:11:03] That's a really interesting question, Laura. My personal approach to our business and what we do is we work best with law firms that are looking to develop long-term relationships with their clients. And I find that regardless of whether it's plaintiff, defense, transactional, litigation, wherever our guests are on the whole spectrum of attorneys, they are most interested in having those relationships. They understand the law is a profession of trust, and they want to instill that trust and confidence in their clients and have that connection.

Laura Khalil: [00:11:41] I mean, especially related to what you said earlier about how they're very aware of how they are perceived within the world. If we don't have that trust with our clients, it becomes very transactional.

John Reed: [00:11:56] I've never had to screen a guest about, you know, what's your response rate to phone calls, and tell me about how professional you are in your practice. It's just a given. Not that I could tell or sense it or whatever, but I'm not interested in that because I feel if you've got that story, if you've got that niche that you've embraced in your role as a lawyer, then all the other stuff is there. It's kind of non-negotiable. It's just assumed.

Laura Khalil: [00:12:21] I am really curious, John, are there various trends you see emerging in law or within the legal profession that you've noticed as you've interviewed all of these people?

John Reed: [00:12:33] I'll give you my perspective from what I do in my day job. I think development of younger attorneys has been compromised. There's the old adage that you may graduate from law school, but you don't know how to practice law. So, you need those mentors, whether inside a firm where you're working or somewhere else. That's not just practicing law, that's also how to be a good business person, how to be a business developer and rainmaker. And I am concerned that those opportunities for mentoring continue to dwindle.

It's because of a lot of things. Pre-COVID, it was because of client demands and pressures, where before, partners would give more work to associates, and now a lot of partners are responsible for keeping their own hours up. The opportunity to spend more time with developing lawyers wasn't there.

And it goes both ways. I mean, younger attorneys come out and they say, “Hey, I can practice from Starbucks. I can practice from my living room. I don't have to be in the office.” I think they're selling themselves short. So that personal interaction, those learning moments, those teachable moments, they're dropping off. I hope that both parties to that equation understand that they should work to have those relationships.

Laura Khalil: [00:13:52] Do you see the model for how attorneys work and bill changing? Is this sustainable?

John Reed: [00:13:59] There seems to be a Henny Penny moment every few years in the practice of law. It was consolidation of law firms is going to make it harder for smaller law firms. Now the big thing is AI. What is AI going to do to the role of the attorney?

I'm not smart enough to give you the forecast on that. I can't prognosticate what'll happen. But I think the one huge thing that the internet has done is it's made clients, it's made consumers of legal services at all levels and in all areas, smarter. So, they will do their homework before they meet with an attorney, or as they meet with an attorney, they will ask better questions because they have more sources they can go to.

And it's not a mistrust of the lawyer—I'm going to check up on you, I'm going to make sure what you're doing is above board and whatever. It's just people are curious naturally, but they now have the ability to go and get information so that they can co-counsel sometimes their relationships without being attorneys, if you will.

There's a danger there, though, that you don't let the lawyer take the reins. And you should. Trust in the process. You may not like what they have to tell you, and that's sometimes a bitter pill to swallow. The access to more information is good for the market generally, but we also want to make sure that we look to our experts to be the experts that we want them to be.

Laura Khalil: [00:15:24] You had mentioned that when this show began years ago, you wanted to do it in a studio because that kind of felt like the right thing to do. And as someone who was podcasting back then, I would agree with you. That was sort of our best way to get anything done. The marketplace has changed so dramatically in five years. What is it like now to start your own podcast?

John Reed: [00:15:46] Easier than it's ever been, but still daunting. When we started, I wasn't going to compromise on sound quality, and I didn't know how to produce or edit, so we paid to have somebody else do that. And then it just became expensive, and it wasn't sustainable.

We went out and found a wonderful advisor who said, “No, you don't have to go to a studio. Here's good equipment, better equipment, and the best equipment. You choose.” What's available out there on the web for recording platforms and editing software, it's so inexpensive. It's all relative. It's relatively inexpensive to do a podcast now.

I think the other part of podcasting that's so daunting is, you do have to get used to it. I couldn't stand—well, I still can't— I couldn't stand the sound of my own voice at the beginning. It was so weird to hear me, and then over and over in the editing stage, too. Ugh. It was like nails on a chalkboard. But I've gotten used to it, and I think I know the flow of an interview now, and I know how I can edit to get that flow in there. It's great if you have a good guest, but if the interaction during the conversation is wonky, then nobody's going to listen.

You have to plan. You have to plan at the beginning, and you have to take time for every episode. I mean, not this one, but you have to take time for every episode to prepare. 

Laura Khalil: [00:17:13] Let's just be clear. This episode is flying by the seat of our pants.

John Reed: [00:17:19] When we started working in a studio, the first person we worked with said it's going to take 10 episodes for you to feel comfortable. There's truth to that, give or take. It's a recorded conversation. It's different from you and I having coffee. You're aware of more things that you're trying to put together.

I've taken a lot of criticism, or at least I've had a lot of suggestions of why aren't you doing a video podcast?

Laura Khalil: [00:17:41] Why don't you do video? 

John Reed: [00:17:43] You know, because... let me go back and explain. Every guest, we have a discovery call, and that's where we get to know each other. Once you hit the record button and that red light goes on, people's demeanor changes. And so, to keep it as free and light as possible, I just decided, you know what? Let's not have the pressure of video.  

Laura Khalil: [00:18:06] I think one of the big questions that everybody has is how do you find your guests?

John Reed: [00:18:13] It's a combination of things. I'll tell you a story. Back in the day, I worked for a company that was in legal information, legal publishing. And I managed a sales force. When new reps would come on, I'd give homework on day one: bring an article from a newspaper. I don't care what section. Could be front page, could be sports, could be obituaries, could be cooking, I don't care. And we're going to talk about the legal aspects of whatever is in that article. So, if it was sports, great. Let's talk sports law. If it was cooking, great, let's talk food safety. If it was international relations, great, let's talk about international law or admiralty or, or whatever.

That is in my head sometimes when I'm thinking about guests. What's a kind of a small slice of some sort of the economy, or what have you, and is there a lawyer in it? So sometimes it goes that way. I do searches every once in a while where I'll have prompts, like "unique practice areas" or "unusual lawyers" or something like that. I'm trying to have it be educational. So, what does the common listener know about antitrust law? So that's on my list, is to find somebody who can speak to that, but who also rises to that sticky lawyer level. And that's the hard part. You can get some really great lawyers, but they're missing that, extra element that makes them a sticky lawyer. 

Laura Khalil: [00:19:39] Wait a minute. This is a great question. How do you externally identify that something about them?

John Reed: [00:19:48] I'll call out just a wonderful guest. Chris Jennison. I think I was like, I wonder if there's any lawyers who also fight fires? And so popped it in, and up popped Chris. He's been long-involved as a volunteer firefighter. He practices with the FAA, doing employment law, federal government. So that's interesting. And he's also very, very committed to the American Bar Association and, in particular, the Young Lawyers Division and nurturing new lawyers. So, it's like, that's the combination. And then you get on the phone and have the discovery call, and you hear about where the firefighting started, and the stories that have come from that, and what he does in his work. It's a little bit of magic. It's a little bit of sense on my part. It's the unknown element that pulls it all together.

Laura Khalil: [00:20:45] John, has there ever been an attorney that you've reached out to for one thing for the show, and it's actually gone in an entirely different direction?

John Reed: [00:20:54] Yeah. It was kind of funny, because I'm not the brightest bulb in the marquee. There is an attorney. His name is Rick Walawender. And he, in addition to practicing at a relatively large law firm, is also the honorary counsel for the Consulate of the Republic of Poland in Detroit. C-O-N-S-U-L. Stupid me. That means he's the local law representative for Poland in Detroit.

[00:21:21] Laura Khalil: Yeah. Yeah. No.

[00:21:24] John Reed: We're having our discovery call, and I said, “Rick, what are the qualifications to be the consul?” And he says, “There's business people and others.” I said, “You don't have to be a lawyer?” And he said, “No.” And I was like, I got nothing.

But then we started talking about his connections to Poland through his parents, through his time that he spent there during Solidarity, how those connections came back, and whatever. He explained to me—it was so incredible. I never knew this— that historically the region of Ukraine and Poland have not been very close, but because of the war, Poland has opened her arms to Ukrainians, and it's been, uh, a really wonderful thing.

I was like, okay, I botched this one up. I got nothing. How am I going to get outta this? And instead it opened up a whole different type of conversation. That was just a thrill for me.

Laura Khalil: [00:22:22] I love that. That is so cool. And it's a testament to your ability to just pivot on a dime.

John Reed: [00:22:30] Luckily, it was in the discovery call, so it wasn't like we were recording, and you could hear the terror in my voice or anything. We could do that earlier in the discovery call.

Laura Khalil: [00:22:40] But he actually came on the show.

John Reed: [00:22:43] Oh, yeah. Yep. I will say, mistakes. I've made them on this podcast and in the rest of my life. But sometimes when I feel like changing something on the podcast, I'll change it. I was very inspired by Malcolm Gladwell's podcast, and so my intros, for example, are kind of Gladwell-esque. And in the first, I don't know, five, 10, whatever episodes, we were doing commercials for Rain, and I was doing them in a kind of a Malcolm Gladwell sort of story way. And then it was just like, this is silly because this isn't meant to be a lead generation tool for Rain. I decided I didn't like the music anymore, so I just want it changed, and we changed it. I'll probably change it again. So, if there's any sort of brand consistency that I'm supposed to be adhering to, I just get bored with what we've done, and I change it because I want to and I can.

Laura Khalil: [00:23:41] What drives you to keep doing this? Why do another 50 episodes?

John Reed: [00:23:46] I mean, the stock answer, and it's true, is I love the learning. If we go back to that question you asked about attorneys being conscious of the often poor public perception, I love it when we can have a great interview and basically say, “In your face, public. Here's a fantastic person who is everything not in what your misconception is over lawyers.”

Selfishly, I'm kind of always looking for the perfect interview. Editing makes it sound clean. But I know what it's really like in the raw recording and I just want to make sure it's entertaining and interesting and worthwhile for the guest. That we've got this flow and we've got this, this good rhythm and repartee and witty banter as well. So that's kind of my personal goal.

Laura Khalil: [00:24:36] I imagine that there have been moments where you have had amazing interviews, interviews that have probably really stuck with you because anyone who's been doing this for long enough will remember those moments. Can you tell us about some of those moments for you? Some of those interviews that have really stuck?

John Reed: [00:24:55] Yeah. And, and for different reasons. Again, disclaimer, I love all my children equally.

I recently, this year, talked to Samantha McCoy, who was extremely generous. She is a survivor of sexual violence, who has not made it her law practice, but her side hustle is that she is working with legislatures around the country to change the laws in states to better protect survivors.

Haydee Dijkstal is an attorney who grew up in Wyoming and decided that she wanted to be an international lawyer. So, she then went to Georgetown and now she's at The Hague. I had a fantastic discussion with John Schwarz, who is a farmer lawyer representing farmers. Pakistan's first animal law attorney, Hira Jaleel, who now teaches in this country. I've had fun talking about the legal issues that superheroes encounter. If Superman destroys a building, who's paying for that?

I've learned about legal deserts. There are areas of this country where there may be entire counties that only have a handful of lawyers, if any. And how are those people getting representation when they need it? Our only two-part episode ever was talking with Sumbul Ali-Kalamari about Sharia Law, something that is completely misinterpreted by the American public. I've learned about election law. I've learned about disputed art. Space law. I've learned about space law.

Maybe I'm my best audience for this podcast, that if I can get excited about every new episode and I walk away learning something, maybe that's the litmus test.

Laura Khalil: [00:26:40] I want to move on to what I'm referring to as our "get to know John Reed speed round."

John, are you ready?

John Reed: [00:26:50] Yeah, sure. Go.

Laura Khalil: [00:26:52] Dog or cat person?

John Reed: [00:26:53] Dog. Have a dog and proudly volunteer with Leader Dogs for the Blind. Leaderdog.org. Look them up. Great organization. Next.

Laura Khalil: [00:27:03] Certainly is. Coke or Pepsi?

John Reed: [00:27:05] Coke.

Laura Khalil: [00:27:06] Coffee or tea?

John Reed: [00:27:08] Coffee. Well, both. Depends on the time of day.

Laura Khalil: [00:27:11] Are you a morning person or a night owl?

John Reed: [00:27:13] More morning.

Laura Khalil: [00:27:15] Do you prefer the beach or mountains?

John Reed: [00:27:18] Have you seen me?

Laura Khalil: [00:27:20] You and I are both blindingly pale. I feel like that's a, you know...

John Reed: [00:27:23] Yeah. But at least you have darker hair that shows the contours of your face. I've never had an x-ray. They just hold me up to an incandescent light, and they can see my entire skeletal structure.

Laura Khalil: [00:27:36] Would you call yourself an introvert or an extrovert?

John Reed: [00:27:39] The clinical term is ambivert. Technically, right down to the core, I'm an introvert. I like being in my own head, and I get my energy from sometimes solitude, but I can be gregarious and social and pull that off, too. So, I guess you'd say I'm an ambivert.

Laura Khalil: [00:27:59] Fair enough. I resonate with that as well. And my last one, you talked about superheroes.

John Reed: [00:28:06] Hmm.

Laura Khalil: [00:28:07] If you could have one superhero power, what one would John Reed pick?

John Reed: [00:28:15] Time travel.

Laura Khalil: [00:28:16] Back or forward or anywhere?

John Reed: [00:28:18] See, now you're going to get into this here about, oh, butterfly effect. And I always qualify by saying only backwards in time. And I'm most interested in just confirming facts. I'm not there to change anything. It would be great to go back and buy Apple on its IPO date, but I would like to go back and see what really happened. Great moments and greatly contested and misinterpreted moments. I want to know what really happened.

Laura, I know I kind of put you on the spot when I asked you to do this, but you are the Oprah of podcast interviewers. Let's give a shout out to you. What are you up to these days? Where can people go to learn more about Laura Khalil?

Laura Khalil: [00:29:05] In addition to being the Oprah of the podcasting world, I am a sales and marketing consultant, and folks can go learn about me at laura-khalil.com. That is, of course, if you can actually spell my last name, which is a prerequisite to finding me in the first place. So that is K-H-A-L-I-L. 

John Reed: [00:29:30] And another way you can find Laura is to go to Google and type in, I found all my siblings. Can you spend a moment talking about this?

Laura Khalil: [00:29:40] I am the child of Lebanese and Egyptian immigrants. My paleness is in stark contrast to literally every single person in my family who is a brown person. And I was confused by this. I always had found it unusual. So, I did 23andMe back in 2013, and five years went by, and somebody on 23andMe messaged me in 2018 and said we share a surprising amount of DNA. Well, come to find out that I had not just one half-sister, but I had nine half-sisters. You can hear my entire story of how that evolved on an episode that was produced for NPR station, WDET. It is very interesting what actually happened, how all these siblings came together, and the doctor who made it happen.

John Reed: [00:30:46] And I encourage everyone to go find that episode and give it a listen. It's really extraordinary.

I think I've had about enough time in the spotlight and hearing myself talk, so let's wrap this up. Laura, you are a true friend of mine, and to this podcast, we owe so much of our origin story to you. Thank you for doing this.

Laura Khalil: [00:31:06] John, it's been a pleasure to be here. I always love seeing you. I am honored that you'd even ask me to do this. And I love Sticky Lawyers, and I'm not an attorney, but it's a great show. It's interesting, it's fun, and I look forward to the next 50 episodes.

John Reed: [00:31:26] Hey listeners, before you move on to your next podcast, can I ask you to take a minute and show us a little love? Maybe like the episode, subscribe to the podcast, leave a comment. That way, you'll let us know that we're doing a pretty okay job. And we would appreciate that.

Until next time, I'm John Reed—back in the interview chair—and you've been listening to Sticky Lawyers.